Carl J. Cox 5:59
easy to show you rely on
Michele Williams 6:01
any of accountants
Carl J. Cox 6:02
to realize my background as an accounting, right?
Michele Williams 6:04
Well, you realize that mine is the love of accounting. So I think it was just the class because there are plenty of accountants that I’m friends with now. Um, but at the time, it just felt so insular, everybody just kind of was keeping to themselves. And that was back when you drop T accounts with your red your black pen, and it was just way too serious for me. And so I loved it. But I didn’t feel like that was the path I was supposed to take. Long story short graduated college, I went to work for Dun and Bradstreet software, which was management science, accounting at that time. And my first job was to work on an accounts payable system, and to do all the support for it. Then I’ve moved on and built a project accounting system for the company that was my role was a development manager. So building financial software, so I was able to tie it all back together, right? I did that for 10 years, I left that came home and was taking care of a very, very young family. My boys were one and three at the time. And I started making interior window treatments in doing design in a home that we just built. And I had taken some classes while I worked corporate at night, because it was an interest to me. And I’d always been crafty. Long story short, my neighbors rang my doorbell and asked me if I could make window treatments for them. They would pay me. Okay, I’m sitting at home with my kids, I’m looking for something to do, I’m gonna do it kind of person. Sure, I’ll do that. So that’s how my business started in the, my bedroom, my husband at one point finally said to me, Michele, you’re not working in our bedroom, we’re sleeping in your work room, you got to do something because it kept growing. That business grew, I ended up. I’m doing interior design for everybody around me. And then as you mentioned, in 2009, I bought bought into the management of a school in Charlotte, North Carolina called the custom home furnishings Academy. And we were a school that taught interior decorating staging, upholstery, window treatments. And I did a lot of the education. And I taught the business courses, I taught how to price without emotion. So I started teaching all of those things. I put out a magazine every other month, and hosted monthly training events, and drove back and forth. I’m in Atlanta. So I drove back and forth every month for a week at a time and stayed in North Carolina. Then we sold that school, I had some health issues that required me to get out of that. And I’m thinking how am I what am I going to do next? And people honestly started calling me in saying, Okay, I know you’re not doing this anymore. But you’ve taught us so much walk with us help us go forward. And so I went back and did some coaching education, and started my coaching practice back in 23rd, January of 2013. I’m really focused on helping creatives use all of that talent. Because sometimes Yeah, I think I mentioned this to you car when we spoke one time before that idea of starving artist. Right? Right. And you don’t have to starve to be able to be an artist or artistic or to have some creative flair in your business. And so I really kind of come in and ask them why they’re believing that like, why why does that have to be your truth? And really working around that. And so now I host a podcast and do coaching and education training around that.
Carl J. Cox 9:31
i So there’s so many questions I have of that story. So first of all, you you had this traditional corporate job you had, obviously we’re raising a family at two young kids. And so you started moonlighting doing interior design right, so and so you start that part, when I’m kind of curious, when did you when did you stop your corporate job right? When did you have the courage to leave that and Yeah.
Michele Williams 10:00
Well, so two things happen. One, our company that was back in the 80s in the 90s, in the.com. Oh, yes, that remember that? Yeah. And, um, our company, got bought out, and then bought out and then bought out. And they were of the I don’t know if you remember those days, those days were at the end of the year, if you needed to balance everything in the company, you fired everybody, and then you turn around and rehire you needed to bring him back as consultants. So instead of managing properly all year, they did a fire, hire fire, hire fire, hire, merge, merge merge, and it’s just crazy, right? Yeah. Well, I had survived 13 layoffs. Wow. And it got to the point where they were no longer going to build knew they were going to maintain. And I was on the build side. And so I got my walking papers. And it was funny, I had just had a review. That was excellent, excellent, excellent. We’re going to look at a promotion. And then it was, Oh, we’re not even doing this part anymore. We’re going to start phasing it out. So it it happened quickly. Wow. Um, but I started interviewing again, to work. The challenge was to just just real honesty here. I had a one year old, I literally got laid off the day before he turned one. I had a one year old, a three and a half year old, in Atlanta, with no family around to help us. So my husband had a job in it or in software, the same way that I did, we each had like an hour drive wherever we were going with traffic. And it our lifestyle was struggling because we were never home with these little people that we were trying to raise. And I just really felt like I needed to take as much as I’m a go getter. I never saw myself as stay at home mom, that was just nothing wrong with it. It just wasn’t the way I had envisioned my life. But everything in me screams I cannot. I can’t go back to that. I think once I stepped home, and our home felt calm, as opposed to taking the kids to daycare in their pajamas marinum home and feeding them and putting them back in their pajamas. And all we pretty much got was dinner snuggles that they weren’t exhausted and putting them to bed. And everything shifted during that phase when I was looking for a job. And my husband and I were kind of like, Yo, I think we’re willing to give up six figures a year for to not have to go back to that level of busyness in our home again. But because I’m such a, I immediately started looking forward to what are things but this is before the gig economy, right? We’re talking back in the 90s. This is way before the gig economy. This is before a lot of online, there’s not very much on the internet yet. It’s not like it is now where that’s an easier thing to take on there. You didn’t You didn’t, we didn’t even have job sharing. Those things just weren’t even an opportunity. So I started doing things in my own home from those courses that I’ve taken. I started sewing and making things and doing things and just doing it in my own home. And then I lived in a neighborhood that was brand new people started coming over to play Bunco and have all the little, you know, bring your kids to play dates and all of that. And they started looking at what I done. And they then they were all in new home. So they were all like, we’ll pay you come do an hours. So I just went through 88 homes in my subdivision. And the business kind of blew up around me. Wow.
Carl J. Cox 13:30
Wow. Wow, that is. So it was through a bit of I mean, that that was an interesting time period, as you mentioned, the corporate structure, especially in Atlanta, where there’s so much merger and acquisitions happening because it’s in sin and just really challenging. And then of course, there’s no sense of culture, right? It’s just survival. You know, you just just like you said, 13 layoffs, that’s incredible that you’re just
Michele Williams 13:54
waiting for the box to show up at your desk. And I mean that we knew we could almost feel it was horrible. I mean, you never knew day to day what was gonna happen? Yeah,
Carl J. Cox 14:03
yeah, no, I remember myself having one of the times I didn’t get laid off in one of my positions. I had the privilege of then handing out 200 paychecks. So that was the Congratulations, you made a curl and now your next job is to be the one handing it out.
Michele Williams 14:19
I’ve been on both sides of it is miserable. Yeah, absolutely.
Carl J. Cox 14:23
And, and so so incredible. So you had this kind of out of necessity and then opportunity you’re like, Okay, we want to even though it wasn’t your first thinking you’re like, Okay, I really want to do something to help support my family more, be more present, right? Because you couldn’t see any other way despite not your intentions. Right? Like you said that that’s really interesting. But you were able to do that create this business out of your home of your own passion you obviously edge it you know, there’s something I think it’s pretty easy. If you’re listening, you hear Michele consider saying I went to school to learn about this. I took a book to learn about this. This is something it sounds like that’s really smarter you’re doing on a consistent regular basis. Mm hmm. So then you had the academy, right. And so that must not be his, you know, you went back to like being gone a week, a month.
Michele Williams 15:10
Right. And at that point, my oldest was in the ninth grade. So my youngest was in the sixth grade. So we had gone forward a few years from there. And so they were able to be a little bit more self sufficient. My husband, thankfully, his job was about two miles from our house. So he was able to be very flexible and get them around where they needed to go. And I did that for four years.
Carl J. Cox 15:38
Well, wow, that’s, that’s pretty awesome. And so you sold that business? And then that’s when you got into the coaching. And what what I really find what’s interesting is obviously, you were making a difference before and just people reaching out to you. Right to like, yes, help me out. Right, I still want to learn from you, because you were helping me out beforehand. And so now let’s talk about that left brain, right brain for a minute. Right. Okay. So you are dealing with generally, your background? Well, in your design stage is that creative side of the mind. Right, you’re working with people that their passion is creating great art, right, whatever that might be, you know, it’s interesting, voters are an art, like not all of them feel that way. But you know, there’s an art right to whenever you’re creating something from new and scratch, and you’re making something that ultimately needs to ship somewhere right to something something new. And then as you know, there’s two big challenges I see in people who are in art. Number one is not wanting to ship it, because it’s not perfect. And then the second thing is, it’s okay to make a profit from your business, because it’s actually a show of how what a difference you’ve made in the world, I think people they like, well, it’s my art, and I don’t feel like I’m worthy, or I don’t know what it is all the time. There’s these different parts, you’re in this. Let’s talk about those two things a little bit. In bility, of shipping, you know what that means? Yeah, I mean, like, meaning you’ve built something and having the confidence to ship it out to your clients. And then and then. And then number two, making a profit and being okay with that. So let’s talk about the first thing, how do you help people who are in the creative design world to overcome themselves? And I put that overcome themselves? Because the product?
Michele Williams 17:24
Is there? Balance? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How
Carl J. Cox 17:26
do you get how do you help coach them to it’s okay to ship it.
Michele Williams 17:31
So the first thing that I would say is, I believe all people are creative. I just do in some way. And so I try to stress to my listeners on the podcast, as well as those that I coaches, some of us may be creative in thought, some of us may have creative ways of expression or writing, or you know, you’ve got author to get all these things, that is a way of being creative. Some of us may be creative, and problem solving. Some of us may be creative in the the creation, if you will, of window treatments, or interior design, like thinking it’s all stemming from how we see the world interact with the world and are solving problems that that’s what creativity is. And so when you stand back and realize that everybody has some version of creativity, and now the best thing to do is to figure out, when we are working in a way that we are naturally creative, it’s going to feel easier than when we are forced into a way of feeling like we need to be creative in somebody else’s way. Right. And now once it becomes easier, we tend to diminish what it’s worth. It came easy to me. Like that’s, that’s what we hear on the creative side all the time. Well, I don’t have to charge for that it was so easy. Well, I then challenge Why does it have to be hard to be valuable? Right, why does value have to equal difficulty? Like who? Who created that way of thinking, right? And what if it could be easy? And what if it could be natural? And Why could you not make money? And if we were building a business, Carl, why would I build a business that was difficult, and frustrating, and terrible, and difficult? And all the horrible words that you could put in that no good, very bad day. So that I could say now it’s worthy of a profit like it doesn’t? It doesn’t make sense, but we’re working in that paradigm. So let’s shift it. What if I could create a business where I’m working in my strengths, where I’m doing what I love, where I’m employing people who love what they do and want to be there and understand the why and the mission and the vision and the values and we’re all like the right butts in the right seats doing the right things? What if we created an environment like that? Not only would it be valuable to be there, but what if then what we created was valuable, right? And we can start that with one person. It does. We don’t have to wait Do we have a team of five? We are the ones as the owners of our firms, whatever size it is, whatever it looks like, we are the ones who bring that, right. So I think when I can help people really step back and understand that, that what they are putting into the world is worthy in some way, right. And it’s separate from their own personal worth. That’s what I want. What we create is separate from our personal worth. And so now we need to look at it and ask ourselves, like, for example, does the plumber hire a plumber to come do his or her plumbing? No, they go in there and do it themselves. But I can tell you really difficult plumbing situations, I don’t want to do them. It’s worth it to me to hire somebody who knows what they’re doing to do it right the first time become liquid, you’re talking about changing the lid on the toilet? Yeah, I can do that. But we’re going in and doing like my kid blessed. Like ninjas down the toilet disabled is some point you’re outside of my skill set. And then you flush the second one down to see if it would bring the first one back. I’m like, Come on, dude. But again, I’m not gonna go do that. Right. But the plumber would have done it himself. Right? Yeah. So when you get it that, okay, wait a minute, somebody needs this. And I usually tell my people, we’re being paid in my estimation, for five things. There are five things that our clients are willing to pay us for. They pay us for our knowledge, which is what we know. The pay is for expertise, which is our knowledge and action. They pay us for our time to show up and do it. They they pay us for the value, the overall value that we bring, or that we create in their space, and they pay us for stress relief. That’s what they’re paying us for. And so while we may not know how to look at one piece, or one part, let’s look at the whole thing, right? It’s kind of like the whole what is it? I’ve heard it with multiple
names, including that you know, where the little boy goes up, let’s say to Monet, or whoever it is, or banco, and he hasn’t draw a picture on a napkin, and he says something like, that’s $15,000. And he said, but it took you five minutes. And the whole thing is no, it took me X number of years to be able to do it in five minutes. Because the difference between knowledge and expertise, right. So when people are hiring us, they’re not it’s not what we know. But it’s what we know. And we know how to do it in a way that they can’t do it. I know what to do on the toilet, fix it, but I don’t have the expertise to do it without creating a bigger problem, it’s gonna cause me stress, it’s gonna take me more time than it’s going to take them. And it’s not worth it from a value perspective.
Carl J. Cox 22:39
I love those five things. You mentioned knowledge, expertise, time value, stress relief, you know, in the middle of pandemic, I remember seeing somebody on LinkedIn, they post you know, what should we be doing? And somebody just simply put, create value. Yeah, but I liked how you define these, these three other four other pieces to it, you know, because there are you know, you’re creating value through less stress relief, and you know, giving people more time and providing expertise that they didn’t have beforehand, or specific knowledge right that you have, and I love that those definitions. I think that’s fantastic. So now, so now we have this shipping problem that you’ve defined. Now let’s go to the next part, which is this. It’s okay to have a business and it’s okay to have a profit. And I don’t have behind I think I have it behind here but McCalla wits at first, yes, Profit First, right? And you know, you have a coach of coaching of in terms of concept of profit. Why is this so difficult? In the creative world? So first of all, conceptually, why? Why do you see so much? It’s just why do people not think it’s okay to have a profit?
Michele Williams 23:52
Okay, so I’m going to tell you even taking a step back from that, I have been, I’m not shocked anymore. But at the beginning of my journey, 20 something years ago in the creative space, I was shocked that people didn’t and small business owners didn’t understand the difference between salary and profit. Right. I’m not talking about how it runs through your taxes as an LLC, or sole proprietor or an escort I’m talking about the mental separation of this is what I get paid as a salary to work in my business. And this is a profit that I make by investing in my business and taking a risk and they couldn’t separate it to them. It was one lump sum. And so first and foremost, if we can separate out what what does it mean to have a profitable business separate from paying your salary? I’ve had people say to me, oh, yeah, my business was profitable. And then by the time you get to the end of it, there’s no salary for them, but it made $3 And they look at that as profitable yet. They never got paid. Yeah, yeah. Right. That Oh gosh, that’s that’s that we want to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty. That is why I get behind Profit First. Because I, I’ve lived it, and I’ve seen it, where we are willing to do with so much less than we need to do with we have an ability to almost be okay with under earning. And in a weird way, even more so on the creative space because there’s not a hard product sometimes that doesn’t come out of our mind or out of our conceptualization. And so we don’t know how to price it. The first thing that I help my clients do and those that I work with, is to really understand it. Number one, if you’re working in your business, we should make a salary. And that here’s the question I always ask them that kind of gets them? Would you allow your son or your daughter or someone that you love dearly, to do what you do the way you do it and make what you make? Great? I’ll tell you that question leads to tears, nine times out of 10
Carl J. Cox 26:01
Oh my gosh, no kidding, right? Because
Michele Williams 26:03
they realize that they are bringing in so little for what they put out there. And they wouldn’t let their son or daughter do it. They wouldn’t let somebody they loved, not be compensated the way they’re not being compensated. And then we have to get to a point where you own the business. So who’s allowing this? Right, so then we have to kind of really start grasping, and grappling with that ownership base that I own this business. And so the only person who pretty much is screwing me as myself. And I need to fix that. Right? I mean, it’s the truth. I say that brashley. But it is the truth. Yep. Because and my tagline on all of my email correspondence is what you own, you can change. So once I can help them understand that they actually own it, because they own the business, they own the pricing model, they own the value statement, you own it. And when you own it, you get to then affect change that takes you where you want to go into what you want to do. So then one step past that is helping them understand what is a fair salary for you. Now granted, when you’re starting a business, your salary might be very different than if you have a more mature business, we all get that at same for profit. But at least saying here’s what salary and here’s what’s profit. And now how do I check my pricing model to make sure that I have pricing in a way that it covers all of the cost of goods and cost of sale, covers the operating expenses, pays me a salary, saves out to pay taxes and creates a profit in the company to create that sustainability. Because if you don’t create sustainability, saying that you’re profitable, because you have a positive number at the bottom of a profit and loss when you never paid yourself is not sustainable. Right? That’s right.
Carl J. Cox 27:50
I love this, these nuggets of wisdom that you providing, and I’m hoping those in the audience who if you are already an entrepreneur, if you’re thinking about becoming an entrepreneur, you know, there’s these two concepts that you’ve met multiple huge concepts. Number one, your if you’re creating value in the world, right? You should be getting you should be earning money as a result of that. And it’s, it’s okay, you know, because you know, you’d be paying somebody else for that value. If you once again, go back to the plumber example, you’d be paying the value because they’re doing something that’s that’s something you can’t do effectively or as confidently, you know, when your ninjas or GI Joes go down the toilet. Yeah, as you mentioned beforehand, you know, and, and, but the but also understand the difference between once again, I love that salary versus net profit, it’s, you know, you’re I agree, you are not a profitable business, if you’re not paying yourself as the owner. And I was working with some new clients that I have. And one of the things they were doing was they weren’t paying themselves very much. And and then they start talking about investing. I said, Oh, hold on a second here. How can you invest when you’re not paying yourself? Now there, once again, they had a small set, they were they’re paying some of something, and they were paying for their mortgage, so to speak, but their value that they were creating there was higher, and you’re gonna find him know, after the coaching session, they immediately start raising pricing. Right, right. Right, because they had this intuition like, oh, wow, we are. And sure enough, their background is quite extraordinary. You know, that’s the interesting thing, right? Is you’re working with, you know, these are people who are or been with large firms and done amazing things. Yes. And then they didn’t have the confidence to pay themselves for whatever reason. It’s fascinating. I just I think
Michele Williams 29:39
they so we so take for granted something that we know, or that has come easy or that we’ve learned over years is kind of that that thought how you know when like you’re a little kid and you think every other family is like your family, and then you go into that family and you’re like wait a minute, they they’re doing things different at dinner when you’re invited over than what we do in our home. And I think sometimes we assume that if we know it, everybody knows it, and therefore it has no value. And it’s not true. It’s just not the case. And so that’s why, again, I don’t want to discount the easy part to make the business, why not make it easy? Why does it have to be so difficult? But I’m gonna say this too, because I work primarily with women, or with, you know, husband, wife teams. In business. I think there is an extra layer that women struggle with, that men don’t. And my husband and I were just having that conversation this weekend, I asked him, I said, Have you ever felt guilty going to work as if you shouldn’t be getting up and going to work? And he was like, No, and I suppose so many women feel guilt around working, because there’s this guilt that I’m not being with my family or doing what I’m supposed to do. And every every family has to make the decision on what that looks like for them, right? I’ve been on all sides of it. But my husband has never felt guilty at getting up and making a living for our home. And I didn’t have to feel guilty, supplementing that for our home, because that’s what we wanted slash needed for the life that we were trying to create. And so when you add that dimension on for some women, and you add on the dimension of many of them, in the creative spaces, some of the ones I’ve worked with are more like 40s and up sometimes. So there’s just all these layers of, should I charge I should be this is home making steroids, should I be doing this, or it’s women to women sales, which is a totally different thing, you’ve got a woman designer going into a home talking to the woman of the home, and sometimes the woman of the home can spend the money and sometimes she can’t. And so then you the dynamics are just all over the place. And so if you know, the interior designer, for example, doesn’t fully understand what they do and how they do it. And they don’t understand the value of what they’re bringing into that home. And then you’ve got another woman over here, who maybe isn’t making the money herself, and she’s trying to allocate family fun, it just creates all this weirdness. Whereas if you can go in and fully understand this is what we do. And how we do it. This is the value we bring this is the stress relief we bring this is the timing that we’re going to do it for you. So you can go do something else. If you can actually articulate those things, it kind of creates a price outside of me as the creator. And so then it’s easier to stand up for that. One other thing I’ll mention, I’m a I’m a firm believer that when we set our pricing and we look at profitability, I like to do it what I call top down and bottom up, meaning a lot of people and Mike McCalla wits and I had this conversation on my podcast, about the your revenues, that is a huge, huge, like, we would call it a vanity metric, right? It’s kind of like what you see on Instagram, how many likes that I get or whatever little hearts, same kind of thing. It’s a vanity metric. Because I’ve worked with companies that made millions in revenue, and they didn’t get paid, and they didn’t have great profits, they’ve lost money. And then I’ve worked with other companies that make 234 100,000 in revenue, and that owners getting paid great. And so when you’re only looking at a revenue number, and you’re not looking all the way down that p&l or that income statement, we can get twisted up. So I like to say, Sure, tell me what your sales go is. Now let’s work it down to see where the money falls out. And then I like to flip it and go let’s do a bottom up. What do you need to have in profitability? What do you need to have to cover the tax exposure? What do you want to be paid or have profit here? What are your capital opportunities? Where do you want to go? What are the expenses? How can we hold the bet those all add up to your gross profit? What is your gross profit as a percentage of revenue and so then you can work it top down and bottom up and it just helps you stress test it to really make sure everything’s covered instead of only looking at your financials one way.
Carl J. Cox 34:15
I love this man. And I wish we had 15 hours to talk though because we are talking the same language so much and but you there’s these added elements. So you mentioned to once again, we have creative design people and then you have women and the own dynamics that are there. We had our home we have four kids, we had to make these decisions, but just saying I was the same I was same way as your husband I never I thought it was my duty and responsibility to go to work each day period. You That was my duty and responsibility to provide right you know, that was my number one well my wife’s number one was to take care of our kids it was a decision we made our home not saying it’s right or wrong decision we made you know that was for us. And but there are sacrifices when you make those decisions. Right. You know, and you know, you may have less of whatever right less material things you might have, but But the value, you know, hopefully you’re finding value the other side, right of what you’re contributing, once again, the values you think is important for your home and what you’re trying to do. You know, there’s gonna be a cost, right of all the things that we do,
Michele Williams 35:12
no matter which way you go. And that’s one of the beauties of I mean, you know, we made the decision we wanted to lash needed to make at the time, but I was also able to start my business small, and my business has grown. I mean, we’ve talked about my kids being one in three, my kids are 24 and 26. Now, so you know, now they’re no reins on it outside of my husband going, when are we going to retire? And are you done yet? Which is not I’m Not and No, but I’m just saying, you know, the beauty beautiful thing about owning your own company, is that you can take it up and take it back as you need to, right you can increase it and decrease it. And I have had the beautiful blessing and luxury of being able to allow my business to grow at the rate my kids grew, still putting boundaries around it. Like I can remember, when they were both in marching band, they were on drumline. And I made sure that when I traveled, I was home by noon on Friday. So I could go to the Friday football games for nine years so that I could watch this voice on that feel like there were certain things that I made sure that we protected in the home, but that I still got to do something that I love to do around it, which also meant Carl, that even if I work 20 hours a week, it needed to be the most profitable, 20 hours, even more profitable. That I think is what pushed me more towards the profitability side was if I only have 10 hours a week, 20 hours a week, whatever that time is, it needs to be as profitable as it can possibly be. Because I don’t have time to waste.
Carl J. Cox 36:47
That’s right. That’s right. Yep, yep. And once again, once again, cleaners priorities. And I feel sometimes honestly, having a more restricted time schedule forces you to focus on those things once again. So in this particular province is gonna be about a month later people hear this, but tonight, my daughter’s playing in a soccer game, I want to be there tonight. I chose to do that as opposed to flying in the night before instead of going to 6am flight. So I have to get up at 345. But that’s worth it to me, you know, so So but I’m filling in today and doing as much as I can on this Monday. So on the Monday night I can see a game and sacrifice a little sleep. But that’s worth it to me right to be present for that game. These once again, these decisions that people have to make they’re not right, they’re not wrong. It’s just the values that we have, you know, respectively going towards that. You’d mentioned something in our prep of this call. I want to go towards now, which I think is really important. And my past history of New York, I loved it when you’re saying you know these, these accountants don’t talk. Well, I can appreciate that. Because I remember talking and doing presentations. So we had a a weekly call, with our NOC call it was in person with one of the companies I worked for, and there were people in the room every time I can guarantee they’re going to fall asleep there was like narcolepsy. I talked about numbers and then just immediately they had fall asleep. Yes. Okay. So you you were talking beforehand of the same thing has happened with some of your clients. You talk about numbers or KPIs because you just came off of Oh, yeah, they’re already people when you’re coaching workshop in Atlanta. Right. And now you’re trying to follow up so they can validate whether their strategic plan is going to work? Correct. So they’re talking let’s talk about briefly my KPIs. You have this and they fall asleep. They have narcoleptic equivalent, right. They’re just Yeah. Why do we have to put a number on this almost feeling? Right? Right. How do you tackle that? Right? When when people don’t want to track they don’t want to monitor? And then and then also addressing another fact, which is how do you make sure they’re not vanity metrics? How many likes we’re getting on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, whatever, right? You know, versus something that’s actually then a metric that’s going to make a difference. So can you talk about those two things? One is, why the importance of doing it and then the importance of the right type of number?
Michele Williams 39:09
Yeah. So a lot of creatives have a, I’m going to say, a lie that they’ve been telling themselves, right, because I think it to lie, that they can’t do math, or that math is difficult for them. Financial fluency is unattainable to them. I think some of it is the creative brain. And I think some of it is maybe some of our culture towards women, that men are better suited for the math and the science and the women are better suited at the language and those kinds of things. Whatever it is, they somehow believe that that is they think, I didn’t go to business school. I don’t have a business degree therefore that’s outside of my ability to understand and I call, you know, BS on that. It’s not true. You can Understand it doesn’t mean you’re going to understand it like your accountant or your financial adviser, maybe, maybe not. But you can understand enough to be able to use those, that intrinsic data to make decisions. So the first thing that I do, Carl, before I can even get to the KPI piece is help at start talking to them about what they do, and what indicators they have in their own business. So, for example, you’re going to design the space, what are some of the indicators that tell you that you’re done designing? What are some of those deliverables? How do you measure is it done so that I get them to start thinking within the work that they’re already doing info competent at and realize they’ve built in measurements for that, whether they have explicitly noted them on the calendar or not, they have that final design meeting that says we’re done. Now let’s go present it, they have that final budget conversation. I mean, they’re dealing with hundreds of 1000s of dollars, they do this all day, they’re measuring length and width, and height, then, you know, they’re calculating all day long. And so what I try to help them do first is go okay, here’s where you’re already really great. Now, let’s take that same knowledge base. And let’s look over here. So when it comes to KPIs, I don’t know that I get so much pushback on not wanting to is not knowing what it is the term feels overwhelming. If I just say, you know, there’s a great book measure what matters. It’s really saying what, yep, mine’s right over here, or there yet, is really saying to them, what does matter? The whole reason, I think that term KPI sounds so accounting me, right, financially, and they’re like, oh, I don’t know those words. That’s not me. And I’m like, no, no, it is, what do you need to measure? And how do we look to say you are successful? How do we look to say, here’s a goal, and I met it, you know, when you talk SMART goals all the time, one of the very first thing is time bound, which is a metric, right? And the M is measurable. And so when we start breaking it down into bite sized pieces, then they start going, Okay, I think I can do that. But I see the challenges them not understanding what to measure, and then when to measure and how to measure. And so really, like it even is as basic as I have a My director of success, and she’s awesome. And one of the things that she does with my clients when we do our own boarding, and we’re helping them go through this is we get help them go into their calendars, and go ahead and set aside time to measure what matters. I mean, it’s that that granular, if you will just choosing to measure and then adding it in looking for how do we know that we did what we said we were going to do? So sometimes even just breaking it down like that. And then having that framework that says what am I going to look at, so even on likes that thing, I will say to them on vanity metrics, for example, even if you looked at your financials, alright, you hit that goal. But now let’s look at your gross profit, is it at the percentage or the number that we need to sustain a healthy business? If it is, okay, good, then then that’s a good metric. Let’s keep going. I have a client a couple of months ago that called me all upset because she had not hit her financial goal. And I said, Well, let’s let’s look through all of your financials will come to find out she had lower revenues, but she had higher gross profits, even higher gross profits than if she had hit her revenue, because we had made some other strategic decisions with how to price and how to manage cost of goods. And so she actually was better off throughout every other part of her, you know, but she had gotten hung up in her mind, on gross revenue, total revenue, right, we had to flip it back and say it’s all these other pieces. So I think when people understand the building blocks of their business, it’s easier to set a metric. A lot of times they don’t, they don’t either know what to measure. They don’t know how to look at it in relation to other measurements, and they never put time on the calendar to go do it.
Carl J. Cox 44:05
This has been an awesome, Michele. So how with your clients, speaking of KPIs, how do you measure success with your clients?
Michele Williams 44:14
I’ll tell you some of the best ways I measure success with my clients is having them really understand why they do what they do. I consider it a success when they call me back and come to me and say, my family sees what I’m doing as an added benefit instead of stressful or as something you know, they’re not on the guilt. So then they feel like what they’re doing is bringing money in and it feels like it’s not only valued by their clients but is valued within their home, which is a really big deal. I remember I’m going to segue on this one time my because I had given up multiple six figures For how many years in the, in the space of software, one, one year, my husband sat down and calculated, what I would probably still be making had I stayed in software he stayed. So we kind of have a good idea of what that might have looked like. And he sat down with our two boys and said to them, you know, this is the millions that mom stepped away from that she had the ability to make, because we thought that raising YouTube in this way, was so much more valuable, and we wouldn’t go back, we wouldn’t change it. But you need to understand, like you said earlier, there’s a cost, we want you to see the value of what mom has done in the home, and then what she’s bringing in and what she’s doing in other ways, so that you are looking at the full value of what it takes to run a family. And that was huge. I mean, I was in tears, because he knew and recognized. And he made sure that our kids understood, that value shows up in more than just money. Value shows up in a lot of ways. And so if I can teach that and impart that, to the women and to the families that I support to understand that value is so much more than just money, therefore, success is so much more than money. Now let’s create what their path to success is or what they view as successful. Right. And then when I help them reach that, that’s, that’s the best, best best.
Carl J. Cox 46:33
Michele, I am so happy you shared, it’s really in, there’s something that’s really come out through this is I don’t need to ask you about your personal psyche is a part of what you do and who you are. And that question of, of true value is I love that. People calling you back and saying I’ve made a difference. Now at home, I made a difference with my clients. That’s a true measure of success. And once again, I hope this one thing I said a couple podcasts ago is your success for each person should be clearly defined by your purpose and what you’re trying to accomplish. Right. Right. So my success value is not your success value. Michele, right. But but we’re you had shared I think is tremendous. Right? Which is people understanding why they’re doing what they’re doing, what their purpose is, and that they now feel that they are making a true contribution at home. You know, meaning in terms of they feel like they bring worth, they are not stressed out. Yeah, exactly. All those other indicators are referred to write. I think that’s absolutely tremendous. So there’s a there’s a Bible verse that
Michele Williams 47:47
says, what is the profit Amanda gang the world and lose the soul? That’s right. Yeah. And when you think about that verse, and you think about it in relation to anything, right? It’s, am I profiting over here and losing, like, I don’t want to profit and make all this money and then lose a relationship with my husband and my children or my family. That’s why I think the bigger goal is to define what your what is valuable, what is successful, and how you want your family to function, whether it’s you and your two dogs, or you and your four kids and your wife, whatever it might look like, what is that mission? What legacy Do you want to leave in the world? Now let’s take your business and fit it into that. And not vice versa. Because then regain what we own we can change. If we’re chasing one dream, and not keeping the bigger picture in mind is easy to gain what we wanted and be miserable in the process.
Carl J. Cox 48:41
Michele, I think we both know, too, when we go to somebody’s funeral, they do not throw up their resume or their bank account numbers because nobody cares. Nobody cares. You know, nobody cares. That part’s and then you and I both been there. Amazing ones and it does not take place and but but the things that you mentioned, and I love how your husband went and measured your sacrifice and your potential earnings in the world. But what you would have never sacrificed that was worth the sacrifice to the difference that you had for your
Michele Williams 49:12
boys are family. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
Carl J. Cox 49:15
So I love that and And anyways, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And and I think what’s important for everyone listening is that that was worth it to you. That was worth the value to you. But it also put you in tears because you realize the sacrifice you’ve made but right once again, whoo hoo. So much greater value. Right. You know, what’s great, you know, for you, you know, once again, it’s
Michele Williams 49:38
always choice. That’s right. It’s always choices. I mean, I was still running a small time business at home and growing it as the kids grew. But we just wanted we wanted our kids to understand that value was more than how much you made or value is more than than some number that that there was value in how you lived your life and how you helped others and how you you know, success just shows up in more than money trade show
Carl J. Cox 50:10
what is a book that you’d recommend to our audience?
Michele Williams 50:13
Well of course Profit First of course, of course Profit First but I’ll tell you and I think I mentioned this one to you is the Vision Driven Leader by Michael Hyatt that’s been a really a good one lately. For my my team, where we’ve been really looking at kind of fine tuning that vision and what it means to move out of the manager leader of every little thing in moving up a level right and so that you are now directing instead of all they’re doing and so that’s been very helpful for my teams that are growing
Carl J. Cox 50:50
great recommendations. i Yeah, Profit First by Mike Michalowicz and Vision Driven Leader by Michael Hyatt and great, great exploration work, where can people find and learn more about your show?
Michele Williams 51:02
Sure. So you can find me at my website, which is scarletthreadconsulting.com. I’m on Instagram @ scarletthreadatl. And you can find me on Facebook at Scarlet Thread Consulting, and I’m on LinkedIn as Michele Williams. Perfect.
Carl J. Cox 51:19
Thank you for sharing all those and we’ll make sure that gets put in all of our publications. Michele, this has been a privilege having you on the Measure SuccessPodcast. Thank you so much for being on it.
Michele Williams 51:29
Thank you so much for having me, Carl. Absolutely. And to everyone
Carl J. Cox 51:33
else in the audience. Were thanking you. I hope you enjoyed this really fun and I think very meaningful podcast that Michele presented. Thank you so much for that. And thank you for listening and wishing you the very best and measuring your success. Have a great day.
Outro 51:50
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